Powdercoating cost?
#21
09-21-2003, 04:22 PM
Powdercoating cost?
Originally posted by: PilotSniper
Great post.
There is deffinately something to be said about the single stage urethanes for this application. This type of product should out perform the base clear especially when prepped and applied correctly as you state.
I think that this combined with the benfits of the epoxy primer not losing adheasion is a deff winner. Most of the problems I have seen with any type of paint have been in the substrate (primer or primer to metal adheasion) and most were done professionaly with brand name paints.
For those reading the info in the post above that are not pro painters two big parts of the succes to this process are the proper prep of the metal for the application of the epoxy primer and what was called "wet on wet" which is the application of the paint over the primer before the primer fully dries which will in MOST instances create a better bonding or adheasion between the paint and primer.
Just curious PilotSniper if you have experience with clearing over the color, products other than sikkens, or have used any type of flex additive?
Again that was a great post [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Thank you for the compliment on the post. Again, since I've been selling these products all of my life, I figured a little info would help those who needed or wanted it.
You can clear over the single stage if you like. Although it's not necessary, it is possible. Single-stage products contain the protective resins that allow for durability within the actual product. These protective resins make their way to the surface of the product as it's curing. Although they're not as durable as a true basecoat/clearcoat finish, they are durable nonetheless. For Autocryl, a 15 minute flash after your last coat on solid colors and 45 minutes if you're clearing over a metallic color (more time because the metallic will move) is all that's needed before laying on a clearcoat.
As for other products other than Sikkens Autocryl, Autobase and Autobase Plus, I've applied Lesonal Intermix, Lesonal 1K, U-Tech Polybase, U-Tech Polybase Plus, U-Tech 200 System, U-Tech 3.8 System, U-Tech 3.5 System, House Of Kolor, Western Synthetic and Kirker Acrylic Enamels. Back in the older days I sprayed R-M Miracryl, R-M Miracryl 2, R-M Alpha-Cryl, R-M Super-Max, Amer-Flint, Super-Cryl and Suntron. I've probably missed a few here and there, but they're not as important as the products readily available on the market today.
As far as flex additives are concerned, I have incorporated the use into a painting application only when dealing with very flexible substrates, like the rear sponge spoiler on a 1987 CRX Si and the likes. We once did a full basecoat/clearcoat job using Elast-O-Actif (flex additive) on a Nerf football. We tossed the football around the group before one of our seminars. The people attending had no idea that our product was on the very ball they were tossing. Once the seminar started and we told them, they couldn't believe the degree of flexibility our product actually demonstrated. They then REALLY put the squeeze on the ball in order to make it crack somehow, but to no avail.
Today's products are much better than the products in the past. We are currently undergoing federal mandates governing the level of VOC's (volatile organic compounds) in these products as well as moving into a world of super-dispersion (SUPDI) pigmentation. There's even a product in testing now that uses ultraviolet light for complete curing in five minutes! One thing I can tell you (without sounding too much like a salesperson) is that Akzo Nobel's product lines (Sikkens, Lesonal and U-Tech) are by far the leaders in the coatings industry. Everyone else is playing "catch up". It's nice to be riding in the forefront...
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Great post.
There is deffinately something to be said about the single stage urethanes for this application. This type of product should out perform the base clear especially when prepped and applied correctly as you state.
I think that this combined with the benfits of the epoxy primer not losing adheasion is a deff winner. Most of the problems I have seen with any type of paint have been in the substrate (primer or primer to metal adheasion) and most were done professionaly with brand name paints.
For those reading the info in the post above that are not pro painters two big parts of the succes to this process are the proper prep of the metal for the application of the epoxy primer and what was called "wet on wet" which is the application of the paint over the primer before the primer fully dries which will in MOST instances create a better bonding or adheasion between the paint and primer.
Just curious PilotSniper if you have experience with clearing over the color, products other than sikkens, or have used any type of flex additive?
Again that was a great post [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Thank you for the compliment on the post. Again, since I've been selling these products all of my life, I figured a little info would help those who needed or wanted it.
You can clear over the single stage if you like. Although it's not necessary, it is possible. Single-stage products contain the protective resins that allow for durability within the actual product. These protective resins make their way to the surface of the product as it's curing. Although they're not as durable as a true basecoat/clearcoat finish, they are durable nonetheless. For Autocryl, a 15 minute flash after your last coat on solid colors and 45 minutes if you're clearing over a metallic color (more time because the metallic will move) is all that's needed before laying on a clearcoat.
As for other products other than Sikkens Autocryl, Autobase and Autobase Plus, I've applied Lesonal Intermix, Lesonal 1K, U-Tech Polybase, U-Tech Polybase Plus, U-Tech 200 System, U-Tech 3.8 System, U-Tech 3.5 System, House Of Kolor, Western Synthetic and Kirker Acrylic Enamels. Back in the older days I sprayed R-M Miracryl, R-M Miracryl 2, R-M Alpha-Cryl, R-M Super-Max, Amer-Flint, Super-Cryl and Suntron. I've probably missed a few here and there, but they're not as important as the products readily available on the market today.
As far as flex additives are concerned, I have incorporated the use into a painting application only when dealing with very flexible substrates, like the rear sponge spoiler on a 1987 CRX Si and the likes. We once did a full basecoat/clearcoat job using Elast-O-Actif (flex additive) on a Nerf football. We tossed the football around the group before one of our seminars. The people attending had no idea that our product was on the very ball they were tossing. Once the seminar started and we told them, they couldn't believe the degree of flexibility our product actually demonstrated. They then REALLY put the squeeze on the ball in order to make it crack somehow, but to no avail.
Today's products are much better than the products in the past. We are currently undergoing federal mandates governing the level of VOC's (volatile organic compounds) in these products as well as moving into a world of super-dispersion (SUPDI) pigmentation. There's even a product in testing now that uses ultraviolet light for complete curing in five minutes! One thing I can tell you (without sounding too much like a salesperson) is that Akzo Nobel's product lines (Sikkens, Lesonal and U-Tech) are by far the leaders in the coatings industry. Everyone else is playing "catch up". It's nice to be riding in the forefront...
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Just kidding there bud, and more good info etc.
Guess your sold on your product huh, but that does make it easier to be selling it etc. I have just one thing that every single painter I have ever talked to agrees with and thats that all the paint companies products $#@& and untill it applies itself perfectly every time it will be both over priced and a lot of work to apply [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] OK OK that was harsh but every rep I know only has the best of everything and thats just not possible either LOL.
Well I do have some experience with a couple of the names you mention and even have or have sold one or two of those brands and its good to see some else around who can help with the paint Q&A stuff. If I can find it I will post a link to a thread on another forum I think you would enjoy. It was a long long debate on painting plastics and the use of additives etc. but never really got anyware due to a strong willed opinion(s) on screwed up jobs etc.
Anyhow thanks for the info and I hope we have not bored everyone to death LOL
#22
09-21-2003, 04:48 PM
Powdercoating cost?
OMG no no not another paint rep [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] LMFAO
Just kidding there bud, and more good info etc.
Guess your sold on your product huh, but that does make it easier to be selling it etc. I have just one thing that every single painter I have ever talked to agrees with and thats that all the paint companies products $#@& and untill it applies itself perfectly every time it will be both over priced and a lot of work to apply [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] OK OK that was harsh but every rep I know only has the best of everything and thats just not possible either LOL.
Well I do have some experience with a couple of the names you mention and even have or have sold one or two of those brands and its good to see some else around who can help with the paint Q&A stuff. If I can find it I will post a link to a thread on another forum I think you would enjoy. It was a long long debate on painting plastics and the use of additives etc. but never really got anyware due to a strong willed opinion(s) on screwed up jobs etc.
Anyhow thanks for the info and I hope we have not bored everyone to death LOL
Hah! That was good! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Funny you should mention, I was on another forum and the same damn situation came up with regards to paint on plastic parts. Happily, there IS a way to do it (as I'm sure you know), but everyone wants to take a short-cut. When you don't do it right, it'll come out wrong. Duh! Can you spell D-E-L-A-M-I-N-A-T-I-O-N???
Why doesn't everyone just follow the directions??? You know the amount of money big companies spend in R&D to come up with solutions to these tricky situations, only to have "Joe Painter" make up his own rules as he goes along?
Sometimes it's not fun being on this side of the paint can. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]
#23
09-21-2003, 11:11 PM
Powdercoating cost?
Sometimes it's not fun being on this side of the paint can.
Though I have seen both good and bad painters (and everything in between and some that are truely genious) I am not remembering any bad paints. Now I am not talking about that 20 year old can that got all rusted up from being outside and is now mostly filled with water, but new product in orig packaging etc.
It seems that when we humans make errors and are not happy with the end result (of anything not just paint application etc) we look to some one to save us shame and put the blame. I know only a handfull of people who are true "painters" and not just applicators who have been conditioned to do the same thing over and over. Funny how many people can not truely understand how bad a problem this is.
Maybe one day when I have more time I will elaborate on this some more but I think everyone gets the idea that there just are not that many true craftsmen in this trade anymore.
If you want your unusual job of painting a frame or part done right I hope you are able to find a true painter rather than the other described, and even if you cant tell the diff up front you will later on.
#24
09-21-2003, 11:36 PM
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#25
09-22-2003, 01:55 AM
Powdercoating cost?
Originally posted by: 440EX026
No joke there.
Though I have seen both good and bad painters (and everything in between and some that are truely genious) I am not remembering any bad paints. Now I am not talking about that 20 year old can that got all rusted up from being outside and is now mostly filled with water, but new product in orig packaging etc.
It seems that when we humans make errors and are not happy with the end result (of anything not just paint application etc) we look to some one to save us shame and put the blame. I know only a handfull of people who are true "painters" and not just applicators who have been conditioned to do the same thing over and over. Funny how many people can not truely understand how bad a problem this is.
Maybe one day when I have more time I will elaborate on this some more but I think everyone gets the idea that there just are not that many true craftsmen in this trade anymore.
If you want your unusual job of painting a frame or part done right I hope you are able to find a true painter rather than the other described, and even if you cant tell the diff up front you will later on.
Sometimes it's not fun being on this side of the paint can.
Though I have seen both good and bad painters (and everything in between and some that are truely genious) I am not remembering any bad paints. Now I am not talking about that 20 year old can that got all rusted up from being outside and is now mostly filled with water, but new product in orig packaging etc.
It seems that when we humans make errors and are not happy with the end result (of anything not just paint application etc) we look to some one to save us shame and put the blame. I know only a handfull of people who are true "painters" and not just applicators who have been conditioned to do the same thing over and over. Funny how many people can not truely understand how bad a problem this is.
Maybe one day when I have more time I will elaborate on this some more but I think everyone gets the idea that there just are not that many true craftsmen in this trade anymore.
If you want your unusual job of painting a frame or part done right I hope you are able to find a true painter rather than the other described, and even if you cant tell the diff up front you will later on.
#26
09-22-2003, 05:07 AM
Powdercoating cost?
If running methanol it will bubble automotive paint. It eats the clear then bubbles the base. It wont do it immediatedly but if let set on there under a steady drip it will destroy your paint.
How do i know this...had a float bowl stick open one night (didnt shut the fuel off) and one of the vents ran over onto the case, and from there it had a steady drip on the frame. It really tore it up.
Methanol wont touch PC though [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
How do i know this...had a float bowl stick open one night (didnt shut the fuel off) and one of the vents ran over onto the case, and from there it had a steady drip on the frame. It really tore it up.
Methanol wont touch PC though [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
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