Kazuma 110 weak spark--need help
#1
11-26-2011, 09:34 AM
Kazuma 110 weak spark--need help
It had a alarm/remote kill/start box on it and with yall's help bypassed it over a year ago. Now after a long days ride it started acting like a fuel problem so off with carb and cleaning. It wasn't any help. When it starts bucking and studdering i can remove plug and it has real weak fire --and doesnt even shock much--lol--that was an accident. Any suggestions would be greatly appreicated..
#2
11-26-2011, 10:02 PM
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But after it kicks and stutters (and dies I presume) can you restart it back up? Or are you dead in the water?
If you CDI is AC powered (5 pin CDI) both the trigger voltage and the AC ignition power voltage are proportional to the engine speed. What this means is that the ignition system is at its worst while cranking the starter motor while trying to start the quad up. Cranking speed is roughly 600 RPM, while idle is about three times that. The point is that a *running* quad with an ignition system that is faltering will almost certainly fail to start back up again because it is now running with one third the trigger and power voltages due to the lower cranking speeds.
So does your CDI have 5 pins? Or is it four pins?
When the quad is working fine is the spark more robust? Don't jump to conclusions... Put on your skeptic's hat. Is *really* more robust? I'm just trying to keep you off paths leading to nowhere...
If you CDI is AC powered (5 pin CDI) both the trigger voltage and the AC ignition power voltage are proportional to the engine speed. What this means is that the ignition system is at its worst while cranking the starter motor while trying to start the quad up. Cranking speed is roughly 600 RPM, while idle is about three times that. The point is that a *running* quad with an ignition system that is faltering will almost certainly fail to start back up again because it is now running with one third the trigger and power voltages due to the lower cranking speeds.
So does your CDI have 5 pins? Or is it four pins?
When the quad is working fine is the spark more robust? Don't jump to conclusions... Put on your skeptic's hat. Is *really* more robust? I'm just trying to keep you off paths leading to nowhere...
#3
11-27-2011, 11:21 AM
Thanks for your response..it has a 4 pin cdi and it actually acts like a 2 cyl skipping on 1 of the cyl. And it is very hard to start..get running..when it is running it doesnt preform well..like ign. Is breaking down or coil/ mag. Is breaking connection..as i said before it acts like fuel problem with hard to get running. But i've been through it twice and no change.once or twice ive pulled plug out to find it gas fowled and replaced and there was no spark. Then later it would go back to very light fire and only every other rev.Not consistent..hope some of this makes sense..for you to be able to help me..thanks again ...P.S. AFTER THE LONG DAYS RIDE IT STARTED ACTING UP AND HASN'T CHANGED SINCE..SORRY FOR THE INCOMPLETE STORY ON ORG. POST..
#4
11-27-2011, 09:53 PM
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A four pin CDI is DC powered.
If your spark is consistently intermittent (missing sparks on a non-fouled plug) and the cranking speed isn't abnormally low then it could be a bad CDI. It could be a bad coil too, but problems such as this usually occurs at high RPMs where the voltages involved are much higher.
So I take it that you can get this quad to start? Does it idle at all?
I'm not an expert at this, but I wouldn't think that an intermittent spark would cause gas fouling of the plug. I would suspect rich fuel mixture first. It sounds like you've already been down this path though.
Engine vibration can cause intermittent connections that can cause the spark to fail intermittently as the faulty connections make and break under vibration. You may want to go through the standard 4 pin CDI ignition tests while wiggling wires around to see if anything shows up abnormal:
If your spark is consistently intermittent (missing sparks on a non-fouled plug) and the cranking speed isn't abnormally low then it could be a bad CDI. It could be a bad coil too, but problems such as this usually occurs at high RPMs where the voltages involved are much higher.
So I take it that you can get this quad to start? Does it idle at all?
I'm not an expert at this, but I wouldn't think that an intermittent spark would cause gas fouling of the plug. I would suspect rich fuel mixture first. It sounds like you've already been down this path though.
Engine vibration can cause intermittent connections that can cause the spark to fail intermittently as the faulty connections make and break under vibration. You may want to go through the standard 4 pin CDI ignition tests while wiggling wires around to see if anything shows up abnormal:
To troubleshoot no spark problems on a 4 pin DC powered CDI it makes sense to start in the middle (the CDI), measure as much as we can and branch out from there. For the CDI to do its thing it needs power and ground, and a trigger pulse.
1) Unplug the CDI. Turn the ignition switch on. Set all kill switches to the the "run" position. Use
a meter to measure the DC voltage on the pin labeled "AC ignition power" in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 20 volt DC scale. You should read battery voltage (12 volts). What do you measure?
2) Leave the CDI unplugged. Use a meter to measure the resistance of the "Ignition Trigger Pulse" pin in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 2K ohm scale. You should read approximately 150 ohms. What do you measure?
3) Set your meter down to the lowest scale you have for measuring AC volts. 2 volts would be ideal, but some meters don't go that low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 0.2 to 0.5 volts AC. What do you measure?
4) Now plug the CDI back in. Measure the AC voltage on the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin using the 200 volt scale. If you have to, use a sewing pin to poke through the wire insulation and then put the meter probe on the sewing pin. But don't hold your fingers on the connection during the next test - there may be high voltage here when the engine is turning. With the ignition on and all kill switches set to the "run" position, crank the starter motor. You should see voltages bouncing around at random values and the meter captures all or part of a spark event. What do you see?
1) Unplug the CDI. Turn the ignition switch on. Set all kill switches to the the "run" position. Use
a meter to measure the DC voltage on the pin labeled "AC ignition power" in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 20 volt DC scale. You should read battery voltage (12 volts). What do you measure?
2) Leave the CDI unplugged. Use a meter to measure the resistance of the "Ignition Trigger Pulse" pin in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 2K ohm scale. You should read approximately 150 ohms. What do you measure?
3) Set your meter down to the lowest scale you have for measuring AC volts. 2 volts would be ideal, but some meters don't go that low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 0.2 to 0.5 volts AC. What do you measure?
4) Now plug the CDI back in. Measure the AC voltage on the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin using the 200 volt scale. If you have to, use a sewing pin to poke through the wire insulation and then put the meter probe on the sewing pin. But don't hold your fingers on the connection during the next test - there may be high voltage here when the engine is turning. With the ignition on and all kill switches set to the "run" position, crank the starter motor. You should see voltages bouncing around at random values and the meter captures all or part of a spark event. What do you see?
#5
11-28-2011, 08:05 PM
Ok, i think i've found something i didn't relize..sorry for the mis-direction my quad is actually a buyang 110. is there a voltage reg on frame that has fins for cooling? i believe i was tring to test it and theres a smaller box that looks more like your pic thats a 5 pin. thats mounted up near the handlebar under front fender assy. it will run if you feather thumb throttle,, which acts like a fuel problem ==maybe worth going through carb 1 more time because i believe you are right in that it would not cause plug to fowl if it were intermittent spark.i will start back tomorrow after work and test the correct wires and get back to you. Thanks in advance for your help--you probably get tired of weekend warriors like me..buts thanks for taking the time to help me try to fix my sons atv.
#6
12-01-2011, 09:31 PM
#7
12-01-2011, 11:50 PM
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You probably have a 5 pin CDI.
I never get tired of weekend warriors, but I do get tired sometimes. Life has been really hectic as of late. Sorry I missed answering this earlier
.Here is a generic procedure for measuring 5 pin CDI's:
Is this a picture of your CDI?
Assuming the answer is yes, the first thing to do is eliminate all kill switches and kill switch wiring:
Method 1) Unplug the CDI and remove the kill switch pin in the CDI connector on the wiring harness. The pin is held in with a spring tab on the pin itself. You'll have to probe into the connector and push this tab in order to extract the pin. Plug the CDI back in (kill switch wire dangling) and see if you have spark.
Method 2) Unplug the CDI. Turn on the ignition switch and set all kill switches to the run position. Use a meter to measure resistance in of the kill switch pin in the wiring harness connector to engine/frame ground. If the reistance is infinite on the 100K ohm scale then your kill switches/kill switch wiring are OK. If you measure zero ohms then you have a kill switch/wiring issue.
The other inputs your CDI needs to make spark are AC Ignition Power, and the Trigger signal. Do the following:
1) Unplug the CDI. In the wiring connector measure the resistance of the AC Ignition Power pin to the Ground pin. You should see 400 ohms or so. What do you measure?
2) Measure the resistance of the Timing/trigger pin to the ground pin. You should measure 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?
3) Leave the CDI unplugged. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 100 volt scale. Measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin to the ground pin while cranking the engine. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC while the engine is cranking. What do you measure?
4) Set your meter to measure AC volts on the lowest scale you have. Ideally this would be 2 volts but many meters don't go down this low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. Measure the voltage on the Timing Trigger pin to the Ground pin while cranking the engine. You should 0.2 t0 0.4 volts AC. What do you measure?
Now for measuring the output side of the CDI:
A) Leave the CDI unplugged. In the CDI wiring connector measure the resistance of the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin. You should measure less than 1 ohm (but not zero ohms). What do you measure?
B) Plug the CDI back in. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 20 volt scale. Set all kill switches to the run position. Crank the engine while measuring the voltage on the Igntition Coil pin to ground. Poke through the insulation of the wire if you can't probe the connector.
Caution: There should be moderately high voltage spikes on this wire. Make sure your fingers are not part of the circuitry. Don't touch the probe lead tips while doing this test.
What you should see is a lot of random numbers with lots of zero values as well. This is because the meter may catch all or part of the spark event voltage, with a lot of nothing in between. Describe what you see.
Note: Using a meter to measure this point produces highly variable results depending on the meter. What you really need is an oscilloscope, but most always a meter is all that is available. We have to do the best we can with what's available. Describe the meter results as accurately as you can - there is information there to chew on....
Assuming the answer is yes, the first thing to do is eliminate all kill switches and kill switch wiring:
Method 1) Unplug the CDI and remove the kill switch pin in the CDI connector on the wiring harness. The pin is held in with a spring tab on the pin itself. You'll have to probe into the connector and push this tab in order to extract the pin. Plug the CDI back in (kill switch wire dangling) and see if you have spark.
Method 2) Unplug the CDI. Turn on the ignition switch and set all kill switches to the run position. Use a meter to measure resistance in of the kill switch pin in the wiring harness connector to engine/frame ground. If the reistance is infinite on the 100K ohm scale then your kill switches/kill switch wiring are OK. If you measure zero ohms then you have a kill switch/wiring issue.
The other inputs your CDI needs to make spark are AC Ignition Power, and the Trigger signal. Do the following:
1) Unplug the CDI. In the wiring connector measure the resistance of the AC Ignition Power pin to the Ground pin. You should see 400 ohms or so. What do you measure?
2) Measure the resistance of the Timing/trigger pin to the ground pin. You should measure 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?
3) Leave the CDI unplugged. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 100 volt scale. Measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin to the ground pin while cranking the engine. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC while the engine is cranking. What do you measure?
4) Set your meter to measure AC volts on the lowest scale you have. Ideally this would be 2 volts but many meters don't go down this low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. Measure the voltage on the Timing Trigger pin to the Ground pin while cranking the engine. You should 0.2 t0 0.4 volts AC. What do you measure?
Now for measuring the output side of the CDI:
A) Leave the CDI unplugged. In the CDI wiring connector measure the resistance of the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin. You should measure less than 1 ohm (but not zero ohms). What do you measure?
B) Plug the CDI back in. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 20 volt scale. Set all kill switches to the run position. Crank the engine while measuring the voltage on the Igntition Coil pin to ground. Poke through the insulation of the wire if you can't probe the connector.
Caution: There should be moderately high voltage spikes on this wire. Make sure your fingers are not part of the circuitry. Don't touch the probe lead tips while doing this test.
What you should see is a lot of random numbers with lots of zero values as well. This is because the meter may catch all or part of the spark event voltage, with a lot of nothing in between. Describe what you see.
Note: Using a meter to measure this point produces highly variable results depending on the meter. What you really need is an oscilloscope, but most always a meter is all that is available. We have to do the best we can with what's available. Describe the meter results as accurately as you can - there is information there to chew on....
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#8
12-18-2011, 09:56 AM
#9
12-18-2011, 12:10 PM
Hey football55, in the middle of this post i realized this was not a kazuma 110 but rather a buyang 110..it only has two bolts about 5 inches long and bolt side is an 10 mm and nut is an 12 mm wrench sizes that is ,,don't under stand reasoning for question but hope that helps..thanks..i've been hurt for a few weeks now and just getting back on feet..hopefully will start back on this carb.---electrical problem this week..
#10
02-05-2012, 03:27 PM
Mr. Edwards, as i said in last post i've been down and looks like back surgery around the corner--anyway after testing cdi decided to replace with known good part and no change. Then remove all plastic to see wires better and wahla--short on hard wired battery maintainer to positive side and arc spots all along inside frame . Repaired wire and insulated and put back together..runs great now and has for a couple weeks--didnt want to post until i was sure.thanks for all your help in keeping me from just being another parts replacer..
